F1 - questions and misc rants

[Mister2]

OK, I guess we need a 'real' motorsports thread here, so I'll test everyones knowledge and maybe get some educated feedback. In no particular order:

If the 'special' diffusers are outlawed, will the offending teams keep their points so far, or will they be stripped entirely?

What exactly happened in the Hamilton 'lying' incident? I think I understand in general, but isn't it being overblown (I heard rumblings of disqualifying Mclaren from the whole season!)? Maybe they can just settle on another $100 million penalty and be done with it. :)

Did anyone see Kubica's accident in Australia? Looked like his wheel almost took his head off when he hit the wall. Whatever happened to wheel tethers? I see a lot of random wheels rolling around these days.

As expected, the new mega-front-wings are incurring frequent damage. However, doesn't seem to be slowing the cars down much, look at Rubens run in Australia.

When are the countries with no motorsport heritage (and very few cars anyway) going to get tired of underwriting these new F1 races? Sounds like China/Bahrain/etc basically have to give tickets away for them. And now Korea/India? Forget about Silverstone, Monza, Spa, etc, we need races in Vietnam!! I forgot, there is a reason Bernie is so rich.

And finally, why is Ferrari doing so terrible? I have a strange feeling some German dude is going to come out of retirement.....

Steven Stephens
ES MR2 #66

Go Jensen, I always knew you could do it!

[cap49]

OK, I guess we need a 'real' motorsports thread here, so I'll test everyones knowledge and maybe get some educated feedback. In no particular order:

If the 'special' diffusers are outlawed, will the offending teams keep their points so far, or will they be stripped entirely?

What exactly happened in the Hamilton 'lying' incident? I think I understand in general, but isn't it being overblown (I heard rumblings of disqualifying Mclaren from the whole season!)? Maybe they can just settle on another $100 million penalty and be done with it. :)

Did anyone see Kubica's accident in Australia? Looked like his wheel almost took his head off when he hit the wall. Whatever happened to wheel tethers? I see a lot of random wheels rolling around these days.

As expected, the new mega-front-wings are incurring frequent damage. However, doesn't seem to be slowing the cars down much, look at Rubens run in Australia.

When are the countries with no motorsport heritage (and very few cars anyway) going to get tired of underwriting these new F1 races? Sounds like China/Bahrain/etc basically have to give tickets away for them. And now Korea/India? Forget about Silverstone, Monza, Spa, etc, we need races in Vietnam!! I forgot, there is a reason Bernie is so rich.

And finally, why is Ferrari doing so terrible? I have a strange feeling some German dude is going to come out of retirement.....

Steven Stephens
ES MR2 #66

Go Jensen, I always knew you could do it!

Wow! Huge area to cover.

Diffusers: No penalty for first two races. Run what you brung.

Hamilton lying: He only did it as an employee. Understand he is looking to get out of his contract next year because of this blown up incident. Ferrari runs the show don't ya know.

Aero and wheel tethers, among lots of other things, are some of the mystery spots on a F1 car. Facts will always be hard to come by.

Sponsoring countries. $$$$$$$$$$$$

As for Ferrari. May they lose every race with the famous german sawing at the wheel with the tail-ends at the back of the grid.

[Mister2]

Thanks Cliff, I knew I could count on you. I have been watching a lot more since Mr. Schumacher retired, it was getting pretty boring there for a few years. I actually don't think he will come back to F1, though I was interested in how he would do racing motorcycles. And conversely, I was intrigued about getting Valentino Rossi into a racecar, wouldn't that be something!

The domestic IRL stuff was a big yawner, but since the reunification I guess it has some promise. The ALMS stuff is pretty cool, as well as speed world challenge. But where are the WRC races???? And I noticed A1GP seems to have disappeared from our TV as well, or maybe I don't have the right dish. IMO If you want kick *** racing watch some World Superbike, it will blow you away - 2 short sprint races back to back, never know the winner until the they cross the line, sometimes not even then till you see the scoring.

Steven

[bgriggs]

Looks like FIA has decided that the "illegal" diffusers are indeed legal.

I must admit, I really expected this to go the other direction with as much influence Ferrari has.

More HERE (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/4/9175.html)

[2159ClassicRed]

Who watched Spa?

Congrads to the Iceman.

What is going on with this season's championship? Jenson is seriously screwing it up, but all others in contention are as well, so I guess he's not too worried.

Let's begin some discussion :)

[SmokeyBear]

I'm not worldly enough to attempt answers to your questions, Steve. I think Cliff expressed my views quite well. --- Happy birthday, Cliff --- I'll just add

"Diffusers, smiffusers." That's just part of car design. Hooray for the good old days when 6 wheels was allowed.

"Hamilton's lie" So long ago I've forgotten it. What was it, anyway? Seems to me he was just quoting the company line.

Didn't see Austrailia

The countries with the money get the races. Money talks louder than fans. Period. End of story. Bernie has spoken.

Ferrari's just having a bad year. Can't be perfect all the time. They'll be back. Notice who won Spa? (I didn't see it yet, still on DVR. Thanks, Kurt. cough... cough...) If Massa was in the mix, you would be seeing more of the old Scuderia.

OK - now my rant....
Too many races where the podium finishers are the 1st three cars into turn one, lap one! I'm not saying every race, and not necssarily in the same order, but 1, 2, 3 into first turn usually end up on the podium. Everything in between is such a yawner, I find myself fast-forwarding looking for a mishap. Anybody else?

[2159ClassicRed]

Your welcome :P..................I'm a sucker for the results.

Looks like you should be watching more NAZZZCARRRRH, an Indy :D

[racinric95]

I really think Formula 1 has put the "driver" back into mix. The cars are so
different from last year that the driver who adapted the quickest became the
fastest. Now the rest of the field is catching up to Brawn GP. Jenson Button
needs to step up his game because the Championship is his to lose. There's
no question that the diffusers were the "unfair advantage" early in the season. The lack of testing put everyone with the same disadvantage. It takes time to either adjust your driving style to the car or adjust the car to your driving style. Congrats to ForceIndia for their 2nd place finish. They were able to take the fight to Ferrari and give them a run for their money! Monza will be a real treat. That place is so wicked fast. It will be whoever can run the least amount of aero.

Ric

[2159ClassicRed]

Well this partial part of the season has been my first official TV viewing oppurtunity of a F1 season :D. First time I saw Spa, which was during qualifying, some 1 or 2am in the morning. What a track! Love the elevation changes, narrow roads, just full of beauty, and I guess full of history as well. It just mind boggles me when I see F1 cars go around corners like they are litterally on rails.

Well back to the original disscussion. I can agree on the rest of the teams catching up with Brawn GP now, which is nice to see such a large variety of winners every weekend. They also mentioned that BMW will be out next year :(.

[cap49]

Been thinking about making a Formula 1 race next year and Spa would be at the top of the list. The most spectator friendly and food to die for. Fingers crossed.

What about the use of KERS by the McLaren and Ferrari teams? Seems that right now it gives them an advantage at passing and blocking to stay ahead of a rival. All they have to do is use that extra 10% of power to pass on a straight and block thereafter. If the rules haven't been changed lately the KERS power output will increase next year so it's a system that most teams would have to use. My favorite type of KERS that could be use in the mass market is the Willams mechanical storage system using a flywheel instead of the electric system and its battery packs. It has the potential of storing some very high energy levels that would require way too many batteries or diodes on an electrical system. If the incoming president of the FIA doesn't do any wholesale changes to the racing regulations it could be a real technological battle royal next year.

P.S. Thanks guys for the birthday wishes

[racinric95]

I for one, don't really believe in a 2 class system (KERS/non-KERS) I think if
one team is using KERS they all should. If FIA wants to create a "green" car
they need to explore other options. Formula 1 was and should always be about advanced technology that make the cars faster and safer. (at least the faster part).

Ric

btw; check your listings on the Discovery channel in Oct I think they are
going to start showing WRC.

[2159ClassicRed]

I think the most innovative engineering is all in the playground of Le Mans racing now.

[racinric95]

I agree with you Kurt. I would also include WRC. It seems like every other
organization is trying to establish some kind of "spec" to make the cars equal

Ric

[2159ClassicRed]

Damm Ric, go to sleep :D.

One racing series that just does it well is Indy. What a great tradition of US grand prix venues gone down the drain. I still have hope one day it comes back to original format.

[cap49]

I think the most innovative engineering is all in the playground of Le Mans racing now.

I don't know about 'all' innovations but ya gotta love those diesels. For an old guy like me the original format for F1 in the U.S. is still the Long Beach Grand Prix. Good times.
Ric, the KERS is available to all the teams but some designed their cars without it and others gave up using it after just a few races. Still remember Kimi jumping out of his car when the battery pack caught fire earlier in the season but they had the money to stay after it until they made it work. Money will always separate teams in any series. Always has and always will. Just ask the guys who don't use R-compound tires at Solo 2s.
Who are we picking at Monza? I'm a Button fan this year, year-in-year-out Alonso is the best, so I'll go out on a limb and say the Brawn will run very little wing for strait line speed and Jensen in his smooth driving style will handle the twisty bits with a loose car.

[2159ClassicRed]

Well after much laziness, I looked up the KERS, and I have to disagree with Mr. Quinonez, and agree with Mr. Page :).

It's like extra credit, take it or leave it. You are rewarded well if you take it like the Iceman :D.

[BryanH]

Running KERS has its disadvantages - namely packaging and weight distribution. Overall weight stays the same, but KERS cars have a lesser ability to place ballast where they want it.

I believe all the teams have a gentleman's agreement not to run KERS in 2010. That's a good thing, IMO. While KERS has made for some interesting strategies and new facets of racecraft I've never thought any "magic passing button" belonged in racing. One of my favorite lines from the Spa weekend came from Vijay Mallya (Force India team owner) who said, in reference to Fisichella's 2nd place finish: "He got KERSed."

What is surprising me is Ferrari's relative pace since they stopped updating the car. Kimi has 3 podiums in a row now and Ferrari hasn't brought new parts to the car since (I believe) the Spanish GP. Why they've found some form now while several other teams have been stepping up their game with new developments is a bit of a mystery.

I'm glad F1 cars are back on slicks and traction control has been done away with. I love seeing drivers sliding the cars again! Anyone catch Mark Webber's epic powerslide out of Rivage towards the end of the Spa race? Marvelous.

Speaking of Spa, it's an incredible track and one that should never leave the F1 calendar again. Most of these new tracks we've seen over the last few years are rather boring (Turkey being the exception). Spa almost always produces an excellent race. The 2008 Spa race was an edge-of-your-seat experience.

Latest rumour I've heard is that Kubica might fill in for Massa through the end of this year. I hope Robert finds a drive for next year - he's got a lot of racecraft and needs a good car again.

What do you all think of the refueling ban for 2010? I'm not sure what to make of it yet.

[racinric95]

Hey Kurt, I hope you don't mean IRL in gerneral. The best thing IMS ever did was give Tony George the boot. IRL destroyed Indy car racing by holding IMS
hostage over Champ Car. There was a time when Champ Car could have given
F1 a run for their money. Kurt, if you are talking about Indy as a venue then I agree with Cliff. Long Beach was the best with Watkins Glen a close 2nd. I think a proper venue for F1 needs to be natural terrain with elevation changes. 2nd choice would be a street circuit with proper passing zones. Cliff,
I also hope that Jenson can take it to the bank. I think Vettel may be Jensons biggest treat. Bryan, I agree with you in that the "drivers" need to be in control of the cars, not the "electricions" back in the transporters. I don't think Kubica will fill in for Massa. I think we'll see Giacarlo take the seat at Ferrari. With the new teams coming into play I don't think Kubica will have anything to worry about.

Ric

[cap49]

Looks like the consensus is that KERS and most electronic aids take away from real racing between drivers which is one of the things fans like to see. When technology goes too far it makes you wonder if it is the car or driver that makes the most difference. KERS aside this year has been one of the more unpredictable because of the return to slicks and less aero causing the drivers skills and team strategies to making the difference. Didn't see Webbers slide but I bet it was a miraculous save. With less car and more driver this year the guy is coming on.
Ric, totally agree Tony George was the main cause of the friction in the CART spit-up. His stubbornness in negotiations lead to complete gridlock and collapse of a series that up to that time was able to compromise on issues and get better every year.
Without refueling next year the fuel weight variation between cars is gone. One less danger in the pits and less super sophisticated strategies , which are some times hard to follow, that the team management can use to separating its first and second level drivers to cover 'what if' scenarios during the race.
Next year with the introduction of new teams and larger grids all the top drivers will be able to find a ride. All the possible combination of teams and drivers is mind boggling. Alonso to Ferrari . Kubica , Kovalainen as lead drivers for new teams. Rosburg at Mclaren . Raikkonen in the WRC. Silly Season for sure this next few months. As of today it's official Fisichella is driving for Ferrari at Monza.

[2159ClassicRed]

Any happy BrawnGP fans out there?

[Gary_44]

well since there's no Porsche team, no US mfg factory team, and no American driver to root for...and I was hoping for another nail-biter finish like last year (decided by one point in the last corner of the last race)....
It's very cool that David outsmarted the Goliaths to clinch the Mfg and Driver championships with a race still to go! Doesn't happen very often.

[BryanH]

That was one heck of a race! Brazil never disappoints. I was on pins and needles when Jenson went around the outside of new boy Grosjean at Ferradura. That took a lot of guts and trust.

Sometimes, nice guys finish first. Rubens is a classy guy, too: http://www.inracingnews.com/formula-one-news/f1-formula-one-news/barrichello-lends-button-his-plane/

[SmokeyBear]

Any happy BrawnGP fans out there?YOWSAH! HUZZAH FOR BRAWN! Take that Ferrari & Mercedes! Hooray for Red Bull, too!

[cap49]

Any happy BrawnGP fans out there?

Ditto to everything that's been said in the last day. Jensen Button is one of the top drivers today and showed it in Brazil when he finally decided to stop playing it so safe and showed what he is capable of doing. The classic 'soft hands and big b**ls is what the boy is all about. Hope he gets the respect he deserves.

[racinric95]

At last Jenson can enjoy his tea and crumpets with the Queen Mum. What a
relief:D

Ric

[2159ClassicRed]

Okay, now that all were up to date on the event we can talk about the Brazilian GP.

Great beginning until I left the house. I saw up to his Koboyashi pass. A round a of applause for Kobo, first time out, and it's in deep rain. Qualifies extremely well, and then shows he can hang with the champ while give him headaches. Jenson drove like he wanted it extremely bad. Great to see a new champ, and hope others will follow, as the Schumi years were a big yawn to watch, especially when Rubens was ordered to allow him to win. Can't wait till next year!

[2159ClassicRed]

Not official, but Jenson is the champ. Finally let loose and drove well, and the battle near the end with Webber was brilliant. What a circuit! Can't imagine how jaw dropping it would be to do a track event there.

Can't wait till the 2010 season. I'm extremely thrilled to see how the teams will deal with the non-refuelling. Either way, if one just goes with a big tank or if they go with a highly efficient motor, it will be interesting. New teams, new motor manufactures, driver swaps, should be AWESOME!

[2159ClassicRed]

Bringing back from the dead................

Hungarian GP, what a drive by Mark, aka Superman. Is it just me, but is Vettal just evolving into the greatest cry baby? Excellent at qualifying, but finds infinite excuses for his average race performances.

[schrotacular]

Bringing back from the dead................

Hungarian GP, what a drive by Mark, aka Superman. Is it just me, but is Vettal just evolving into the greatest cry baby? Excellent at qualifying, but finds infinite excuses for his average race performances.

In all likelihood that win by Webber will mean that RBR will want Vettel to support Webber to bring home a driver's championship. That mistake on Vettel's part probably cost him the Championship in addition to the win. He did have fantastic pace throughout the race, but Webber making the option tires last while out pacing everyone was a thing of beauty and stole the show.

[2159ClassicRed]

It'll be interesting to see the fight between the two. Vettal sure isn't much of a team player and has grown to become extremely selfish.

[schrotacular]

It'll be interesting to see the fight between the two. Vettal sure isn't much of a team player and has grown to become extremely selfish.

I'm sure I heard this from Speed F1 broadcasts but it's as true in F1 as it is in Autocross:

The guy you want to beat the baddest is the one using the same equpiment you are.

[racinric95]

Hopefully the next couple of weeks Webber and Vettal can have a chance to relax and focus on the team and not on the individual. Mr Horner will have his hands full
to keep his guys under control. These guys clearly have the best package. The season is theirs to lose.

[Gary_44]

Red Bull gives you wings....but the FIA might taketh away.
I suspect next race we'll not see the flexy front wings rubbing the ground. Then MacLaren will have one less thing to whine about.

Maybe this year we'll see if the old saying is right...
Webber (Age/Treachery) or Vettel (Youth/Skill)

[BryanH]

Vettel's pole lap is a thing of beauty. That RB6 is a magical car.

However, all the cars looked quite sluggish on this twisting technical circuit for the first half of the race. The refueling ban makes them start the race so heavy we don't see the cars behaving in a spritely manner until the end of the race, when just about everyone is consolidating to bring the car home anyway.

I have to say I laughed at Vettel's "Italian sign language" in his drive-through penalty and his hitting the #3 sign when parking the car.

[schrotacular]

Vettel's pole lap is a thing of beauty. That RB6 is a magical car.

However, all the cars looked quite sluggish on this twisting technical circuit for the first half of the race. The refueling ban makes them start the race so heavy we don't see the cars behaving in a spritely manner until the end of the race, when just about everyone is consolidating to bring the car home anyway.

I have to say I laughed at Vettel's "Italian sign language" in his drive-through penalty and his hitting the #3 sign when parking the car.

I don't like the refueling ban, it seems like there is no strategy any more. Although I will admit that Q3 is much more entertaining now.

[Mister2]

So no one wants to discuss the Michael/Rubens incident? I know he doesn't give an inch but that was pretty bad, even for him. Further tarnishing his 'legacy'. Everyone says he will finally shake the rust off by next season but we'll see...

I have to give up forecasting races. At the start of the season I bet my wife Webber would never beat Vettel, shows what I know. And yes, Mr. Vettel is looking a little petulant lately. I still don't know how he screwed up the safety car restart so badly - conspiracy theorists say it was to help Mark but I highly doubt it.

And finally, anyone watch GP2? Those guys are crazy! Really good, close racing, lots of rubbin' and some pretty sketchy driving at times. Very entertaining.

[2159ClassicRed]

I highly doubt Vettel would follow any orders. Entertaining when they told him to stay focused, and basically in translation to stop the WHINING! Weber is definitely the more intelligent of the two, but also packs some serious speed.

Poor Rubens, he ranks as the most underrated driver of "my" time. I would put money that he would fair well against the top guys of today if he were given a better ride.

If you think the no-refueling is bad, look at how much drama went down at the pits this past race. Complete disaster!..............but entertaining:cool:

[schrotacular]

I highly doubt Vettel would follow any orders. Entertaining when they told him to stay focused, and basically in translation to stop the WHINING! Weber is definitely the more intelligent of the two, but also packs some serious speed.

Poor Rubens, he ranks as the most underrated driver of "my" time. I would put money that he would fair well against the top guys of today if he were given a better ride.

If you think the no-refueling is bad, look at how much drama went down at the pits this past race. Complete disaster!..............but entertaining:cool:

It's because of no refueling that things are so crazy in the pits, it used to be that they could change tires faster than they could refuel. Now all the pressure is on getting the tires changed as fast as possible. Wonder if the mechanic that got hit by the tire thinks no refueling is safer?

[racinric95]

I think the real root of the problem lies with only having one pit stall for both drivers.
Under a safety car situation both drivers are trying to get serviced first in order to
maintain track position.
Ric

[schrotacular]

I think the real root of the problem lies with only having one pit stall for both drivers.
Under a safety car situation both drivers are trying to get serviced first in order to
maintain track position.
Ric

I agree, since there's no worry about running out of fuel under a safety car, I wonder why they even allow pitting under a safety car. Didn't the pits used to be closed when a safety car was out?